lawsuit against Aetna, CSX, JP Morgan Chase et. al.

[Hmph]

the holocaust ended in liberation and compensation, and continual benefits. slavery ended w/KKk, Jim Crow and "not welcome" signs

Paid in Full?
Source: Colorlines Magazine by Mick Dumke
02/27/2006

Lionel Jean-Baptiste wasn't surprised when a white federal judge dismissed a lawsuit in July that had asked corporations to pay for past dealings in slavery.

But Jean-Baptiste, the lead attorney for the descendants of slaves who had brought the case, didn't expect that, in addition to exhaustive legal arguments, U.S. District Judge Charles R. Norgle would share his personal view that reparations to slaves have already been paid. And that's what has left Jean-Baptiste intent on pushing forward—even as other observers declare the decision a major setback for the reparations movement.

"He did a lot of research, but he spun the history of the fight of Africans in this country to gain their rights in a way that met his needs," said Jean-Baptiste. The lawsuit was brought to federal court in Chicago in 2002. Nineteen plaintiffs from across the country accused

Aetna, CSX, JP Morgan Chase and 14 other companies of "unjust enrichment" and crimes against humanity, noting how the firms' predecessors had owned, traded, insured or transported enslaved Africans. The suit asked the firms to disclose all of their involvement in slavery, set up a trust fund and pay an unspecified amount of restitution -- making it the first major litigation to press private corporations for slavery reparations.

In response, the companies asked Norgle to dismiss the case, arguing that they shouldn't be held accountable for something that happened more than a century ago. The judge agreed with them. In early 2004, he ruled that the plaintiffs needed to show how they had personally suffered from the actions of the companies. Questions involving the historical and political rights of groups of people were matters for Congress, not the courts, he wrote. And he ruled that too much time had passed for the claims to move forward.

Norgle dismissed the case "without prejudice"—meaning that the plaintiffs could submit their suit again. They did, but their new complaint, filed in April 2004, wasn't that different. While several of the plaintiffs were by this time the official representatives of their families' estates, and their attorneys argued that a legal principle known as "replevin" entitled them to property that had once been taken unjustly, they still didn't show specific ties to the corporations.

On July 6, 2005, Norgle threw out the suit again, this time "with prejudice," or for good. Like the plaintiffs, he didn't change his legal reasoning the second time around. But he did devote more space to declaring his own views on reparations, arguing they've already been paid through the Civil War and subsequent legislation.

"Union soldiers, sailors and marines gave their lives on bloody battlefields and the sea," Norgle wrote in the summary to his latest dismissal. "Generations of Americans were burdened with paying the social, political and financial costs of this horrific War." Norgle concluded: "The sensitive ear has heard the collective ‘thank you' from those who were freed, as well as the historic apologies in words and deeds from persons of good will for the evils of slavery."

Reparations activist Conrad Worrill, head of the National Black United Front that organized demonstrations and packed the federal courtroom for the hearings, says he's been hearing this argument from reparations foes for years. "Unfortunately, a lot of people under this system of white supremacy have the same view -- 'You ought to be glad that you're freed' and ‘It's over and done with,'" said Worrill.

Andrew McGaan, an attorney for the defendants, said Norgle's decision confirmed that the reparations debate shouldn't be waged in court. "There have been lawsuits filed in the past claiming reparations in one shape or form and none has been successful," he said. "Federal court is not a forum for resolving everything that's wrong with society, or for resolving social problems. This is not a political position—it's constitutional law."

He didn't interpret the ruling as a political or philosophical statement on the reparations movement; Norgle's discussion of the Civil War and civil rights law was simply intended to show that the issue belongs before Congress and the president, according to McGaan.

Yet both Worrill and Jean-Baptiste pointed out that, since the suit was first filed, several of the companies have publicly admitted their past ties to slavery and even issued apologies. They said they still see the Brown v. Board case as their model, especially since its attorneys filed several unsuccessful suits in the 1940s and 1950s before winning that victory.

Research teams are busy trying to find specific connections between companies and the families of former slaves, the activists say. Meanwhile, the city of Chicago and several other municipalities now require firms that win public contracts to research and report any slavery links. And this fall's rally in Washington celebrating the 10-year anniversary of the first Million Man March will be dedicated in part to reparations.

"The beat goes on," Jean-Baptiste said. "And we know the history of the fight is that if we don't persist, we're left with the status quo."


Mick Dumke, a freelance writer and editor, teaches at Columbia College Chicago.

[thewiseonecommeth]

For people who were part of the holocaust, okay I can see maybe filing lawsuits to get SOME sort of recognition, apology and some nice cash .

But for those who were suing for their past ancenstors or relatives being slaves, or even those suing whos deceased relatives were in the concentration camps? Whatever!..lol.

Simple concept:

If you weren't there, feel free to extend your prayers to those who were, but you have NO right to conpensation. Quit being a fucking victim!

If you WERE there, after all this time is it REALLY worth drudging up old unfond memories in a court case which could stretch out for years? I can see where some may believe it will help them place closure on it, but it is my personal opinion even IF they win...if they have not placed closure on it by now....they never will no matter how much money they have.

The only difference between A victim or person who is haunted by the past, and one with money...is the one with money can be dangerous. You give money to anyone who has lived in fear and hatred their entire lives, they can be VERY dangerous.

[Hmph]

Quit being a fucking victim!

wow tell that same statement to jews, japanese interred in american concentration camps who receive compensation, native indians, chinese killed during riots seeking and getting compensation, etc. etc.

it will be interesting to hear their response. and don't state it in regards to blacks, just say, esp. to jews, "quit being a victim, you never should have received any compensation or accommodations in the first place".

what do you think happened to the ancestors of slaves? how are their conditions? oooooh, that's right, it's from being a victim and not doing nothing. funny, when things were done to better their environment, they were assassinated, lynched or railroaded out of their homes while continually being denied basic rights, much like Hitler treated jews.

and you should see the new "concentration camps" in many areas of the south. the hatred and unequal treatment hasn't died. just ask european immigrant Rindy Abdelnour. she proudly enjoys the comforts of privilege while hating blacks for being black. there are even gay whites in the south who loathe blacks for being black - don't want them in neighborhood, working for their company, in their school w/their kids etc.



also interesting is that money found in aswiss bank was divided up to jews for further compensation just a few years ago, yet the holocaust was 60 years ago and the payouts just keep coming -- shouldn't their victimization stop?

British rule slavery began in the late 1600s and public slavery-type treatment began to end in the late 1970s. other treatment became quietly practiced. blacks weren't even allowed to work for their government, unless it was as a janitor, but w/out contact w/whites unless being belittled. and of course while working, had to use shithole type bathrooms and filty, crusted water fountains as if they were lower than animals. and that was still occurring in 1964 - so my LIVING family/ direct ancestors of slaves was there.

the holocaust which lasted a few years and theoretically claimed 6 million lives ended w/liberation and never ending compensation and "witch hunts" for anyone who was unsympathetic to what happened. it's still happening now - London Mayor suspended for using reference to Nazi concentration camp, author prosecuted for even questioning holocaust, Prince Harry ostracized for wearing a swatiska, and more... hell look at "the Oracle" ass who was recently here. if we didn't bow down to her lack of knowledge, and acknowledge of her being jewish this site was "anti-semitic"

slavery lasted from the end of the 1600s to 1865, but Jim Crow, KKK, separate but unequal picked up after slavery and ended about late 1970s. over 100 million (and many losses insured through same banking/insurance giants that exist today) were lost throughout the British ruled slave trade. and hundreds of blacks were lynched/murdered yearly throughout the U.S. w/no rights to protect them up until the 1980s. lynched for walking down the wrong street, trying to obtain a job, trying to vote, not speaking to a white person, speaking to the wrong white person, or just for being black. what's the difference between that and Hitler's treatment of jews and U.S. internment of Japanese? absolutely none.

blacks have moved on in spite of, we don't have the luxury to complain about "you're unsympathetic to our situation" (like jews continually do daily) because we've learned over the past 200+ years, no one gives a fuck, much like your response ("get over it"). if they did give a fuck, there wouldn't have been slavery or the conditions that existed afterward. but there's comes a point when you're sick of the 2nd class treatment -- thus people like Medgar Evers, Dr. King and Coretta Scott King!

and what happened to them for not being a victim? Evers assassinated, King assassinated, like thousands upon thousands of other blacks trying to better their lives. thank goodness the bomb placed at Coretta's home didn't kill her, or she would have been a real victim while trying to better her life W/OUT ASKING FOR A HANDOUT. but too bad for the victims of bombings and house burnings throughout slave territories. and I guess those cross burnings were "welcome to the neighborhood" greetings.

but I didn't realize the right to vote, obtain jobs including through the same government being taxed by and housing w/your own money cost the government money. simply for trying to obtain those things (while not being a victim) blacks just 41 years ago were lynched, maimed or run out of town. hell even recently there have been cross burnings in front of homes purchased by blacks in all white neighborhoods.

but when it comes to blacks and slavery, while the millions made through it just keeps growing, the common response, esp. from european immigrants (and their offspring) who migrated to the U.S. during "Jim Crow" is "get over it, why should I pay for it?" while enjoying a quality of life, simple or not, DENIED to blacks. and not even concerned about the history of blacks in the U.S.

President Andrew Johnson in 1865 IMMEDIATELY on behalf of white slave owners reversed all policies which would have created a fair environment. what was left for blacks was KKK, Jim Crow, segregation, separate and ridiculously unequal treatment, etc.

you should also check this out:
http://www.al.com/unseen -- this was only 41 years ago when blacks were STILL being lynched/killed for fun and isolated in segregated areas (like concentration camps), adding to the already existing high count.

and in regards to money, which nation do you think is one of the wealthiest? I'll give you a hint: it's not Germany but it's the one most compensated and concerned about, including those compensated here as well. it's the one which controlled world trade at the world trade center. it's the one which controls world banking. it's the one which controls the federal reserve. it's the one which controls religion. it's the one which controls the media. it's the one which controls who the U.S. will fight to the end for, regardless of which nation is at fault.

so I guess their reparations made a difference, because I've yet to come across a jewish ghetto w/bad differential government treatment. and damn sure one doesn't exist in Israel either.

[thewiseonecommeth]

Now THAT is what I call a detailed response! Well done and very interesting information.

Perhaps I miscommunicated what I was trying to say. For those who personally were present at these events, concentration camps, slaves, etc., yes they have a right to put closure on the situation and if that comes from reparations...so be it.

It may help but it does not make UP for the horrors these people went through. Me personally I would let it go since I would not want to continue reliving those situations....UNLESS....I rethought this a bit after Tam's post....UNLESS the people who were directly responsible for these acts were still around. At which case I would go after them since people in power are hurt most when that power and money is taken from them.

Where I think the word "victim" is more accurate is when someone's great grandson or grandson, or even son for that matter...who was never a slave...who never dealt with slavery...attempts to file for reparations. They were not there personally, so I cannot agree with them getting money just because their ancestors or deceased relatives were there.

Typically people who try to file for reparations are not those who want to right a wrong, they are people who want to claim being a victim themselves...claim their lives are miserable because of other people...and want to make a fast buck. Yet even with the money it does nothing to change their mentality, nothing to enlighten them to make things better.

To all those in this lifetime who were ridiculed, beaten, mistreated, or other related things...due to who they are, who their relatives were, or only due to the color of their skin...it disgusts me.

Even moreso when it is done to those who are soo kind hearted and go out of their way to try to change things. People naturally fear and ridicule that which they do not understand.

---------------------

On a side note: me personally? Not prejudice, never have been. Color of one's skin means nothing to me. However how a person presents themselves, and their mentality / mindset from which they choose to follow destiny or be a master of it, is an indicator of who they truly are and what they are about.

What I personally cannot stand is reverse racism and intentional ignorance, regardless of color of skin from the person it comes from.

INTENTIONAL IGNORANCE: In clearist definition, when you know better and know your actions will lead to negative reactions, yet you still choose to ignore the facts.

Example: When people go around pulling a gun on each other and shoot just because someone looked at them wrong or looked at their girl wrong. Knowing you cannot put out a fire by adding more fuel and that they can most likely expect retaliation, yet being deluded enough to believe if they come off "hard" enough or their reputation scares people enough, nothing will happen. Then if and when someone does retaliate and say a close friend or member of their family gets shot in response, instead realizing they had a hand in it, they use it as an excuse to further add to the bullshit.

REVERSE RACISM: Best way I can describe this is when someone is so conditioned by their own upbringing to decide to blame everyone else of a different race, for why they could not achieve the goals they wanted or why they got a bum deal in life.

Example: I used to work as a manager at a video store years ago. I had some black woman come into the store, grab a movie, then as she was coming up to checkout another woman already at the checkout had asked me nicely where a certain movie was. I took her to the movie and grabbed a copy of it for her, while in the meantime this black woman made sure everyone heard her when she said

"Where the fuck do you think you are going?"

I ignored her. When I returned to the desk and checked out the other woman, the black woman started complaining saying she was there first and proceeded to throw the movie at me across the desk.

I checked the first woman out, then casually picked up the movie...only stating "That was unneccessary. I'm sorry for the delay, is there anything else you need?"

She then came back at me saying "The only reason you made me wait mother fucker, was because I am black!"

I was in such shock I laughed at her and told her that was completely untrue. She continued talking shit, now with a line up of people behind her all curious to see where this would go, including a very nicely dressed black woman in line few people behind her who could only sit there and shake her head as though she was embarassed for what this woman was doing and saying.

I once again told this woman the color of her skin had nothing to do with me helping out someone else who happened to be here before her, and I would of done the same for her.

Well then she starts tossing more mother fuckers at me, and then proceeded to call me a "fuckist racist mother fucker".

At that point I was finally fed up with her, as she then grabbed some candy and tossed it across the counter as it fell onto the floor. I picked it up and calmly responded as follows:

"If you do not calm down and quit swearing, I am going to have to ask you to leave."

She responded:

"I aint goin nowhere you racist bitch!".

I finally had enough and responded:

"Look lady, you are the only one here who seems to give a fuck about the color of your skin. You seem to have more of a problem with being black, than me or anyone else here does. You can leave now, WITHOUT YOUR MOVIE! And guess what? It has nothing to do with the fact you are "BLACK" as you so eliquently pointed out so many times. It has to do with you being rude, loud mouth, who thinks respect is a birthright. Don't come back."

Everyone began clapping and regardless to say that made things worse to the point where I had to call the cops to have her removed because of her continuing to cause trouble and knocking over shit.

As she was removed she told me how she would make sure I lost my job, etc....blah blah...lol....and I nicely gave her corporation phone number for her to report it.

I immediately called my district manager to explain what happened. Sad thing about this situation? She called corporate, and they immediately apologized for ME and gave her 7 free movie rental coupons. Fortunately I wasn't around when she came back into the store to use them. She rented 7 movies at once, was over 3 weeks overdue, never paid the balance and never came back. Talk about a piece of shit and reverse racist...lol.

Point here is that regardless of how corporations feel the customer is "always right" this woman prove that to be false. Thing I hated most about this situation was that by giving her those free movies, they conditioned her into believing she can continue getting away with this type of behavior AND be rewarded for it. I will never forget that.

-------------

So there are my examples . Hope it hasn't offended anyone, but found it relevant to the topic. That woman is definately the type of person who even if her grandfather had been a slave, she does not deserve any type of reparations as I can only imagine what she would do with any large sums of money other than spread more grief and realize by complaining and making an ass of herself, that she can get whatever she wants.

[Hmph]

I think what european immigrants and non-holocaust survivors are not understanding here is cause and effect.

one way or another society has paid and will continue to pay for ignoring the problem and conditions IT created. after the last hope was assassinated (King, Evers, Malcolm X and thousands more), things split into different directions:

those who kept the struggles alive and pushed open doors

those who just gave up and said fuck it, this is all we'll get no matter how hard I've tried and tried -- these are the ones euro immigrants boast about "why can't they get their act together, I did along w/my family who came here with nothing" for those who gave up, you can see it in their faces, they're just waiting to die, and hoping their afterlife won't involve the same treatment.

and the worse: those who will kill, cheat, steal or do anything at anyone's expense because they no longer give a fuck about the same society which screwed over so many of their ancestors a.k.a. thugs, drug dealers, gang bangers, gangster rappers and many entertainment folks. these only see whites and others as expendable objects -- your worst nightmare, and the reasons for mass exodus to suburbs and fear of other blacks just trying to work and live a normal life.

before the assassination of King, things were organized and blacks as a whole worked together to overcome obstacles, while turning to faith and hoping to reach "hearts" of Jim Crow supporters.

also in regards to reparations and treatment, I have yet to see an example today of a jewish ghetto or a situation where a jew has been denied something publicly or called derogatory names and it's dismissed, condoned or excused.

the klan hasn't left the country or changed their beliefs. their goal is for a white america and their membership has increased dramatically since 9/11. CNN just aired a story a couple of weeks ago on this.

cnn.com video story

Klansman told me to get out of America
I met Jarred Hensley, a Ku Klux Klan member, six months ago while working on a story about racial tensions in Ohio. I remember being struck by his age: At 23, he was -- and remains -- the second most powerful Klansman in the state.

Hensley told me the Klan was growing younger and larger, information we later verified with the Southern Poverty Law Center. I asked Hensley if we could attend one of his Klan meetings. He told me non-members are not allowed. But he eventually agreed to videotape the meeting for us. His tape arrived a few months later.

After reviewing the tape (only portions of the meeting were filmed), I went to Ohio to interview Hensley. He told me there was an increase in Klan membership after 9/11. He also said the Internet is the Klan's number one recruiting tool.

Personally, this has been a hard story for me to report. As an Asian-American journalist, I found it difficult at times to listen to his views objectively. At one point in the interview, he told me I should leave the country.

Some people have asked me why we are giving the Ku Klux Klan a platform. I respond by saying there is clear evidence the white supremacist movement is on the rise in this country and around the world. This story cannot be ignored.
Posted By Alina Cho, CNN Correspondent: 9:44 AM 52 Comments | Add a Comment

and people who are so quick to say stop being a victim, or that was in the past seem to forget AFTER slavery, what was put into place for blacks which would have created a fair environment WAS IMMEDIATEDLY REVERSED BY PRESIDENT JOHNSON ON BEHALF OF WHITE SLAVE OWNERS AND THEIR ANCESTORS -- you know the persons who hired the european immigrants who migrated here for freedom and opportunities while blacks were dealing with Jim Crow and separate and unequal treatment under taxation. NO LAWS were enacted to protect blacks from lynchings. no black was safe from it. there are still blacks sitting in jail since before 1970 for "raping a white woman" based upon her word alone, and "her" being a known klan sympathizer.

the struggle has always been uphill, and still is for many because of attitudes and beliefs towards blacks. when I bought my home, I was not welcome. a racist neighbor goes, oh it's just her "she's ok, as long as no more come into the neighborhood"

if you don't know the complete history of blacks and the mentality towards blacks in general in this country, it's easy to think "oh their problem was only slavery" because that's mostly all that was taught in schools: Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves and all was well.


and money don't mean shit. even Oprah has racial discrimination problems w/in this country TODAY -- recently she couldn't buy the land she wanted in the midwest, she couldn't enter an apartment hotel in NYC because it was assumed she couldn't possibly be a resident.

when that shit ends, then people like the guy suing can "breathe in peace". but as long as doors are continually slammed in black faces your worst nightmare is on the rise.

me I wouldn't sue, except directly where discriminated against currently because that you can easily find at any minute of the day. I also believe in shutting it down by not spending your money w/persons who are part of the problem. and in the process make your own shit so much better that the only option is to come begging for our acceptance instead.

in some ways that's already happening. whites, including national newscasters, want to use black slang, play/buy hip hop music, and exclusively dating black men -- look at the NBA, NFL, MLB, Tiger Woods, Clarence Thomas, Wayne Brady...

so hopefully as interracial marriages are on the rise, the older hate mongers will die off and become a museum relic only, and their offspring carrying on their feelings will be a minority.

[miltie]

Reasons why i answered no, hell no, to the poll:

"After slavery, was life just "peachy king" for blacks and their ancestors." (And I am guessing you meant descendants)

Sure, after slavery was abolished, slaves were "FREE" on paper, but by no means free in many other ways.

* Black folks had been forced to work for their masters, plantation owners, etc. for no wages. Now that they are "FREE", what are these people going to do for money, food, clothing, shelter, job, etc. Its like starting from square one. Who's going to give them a job? Most southerners don't like or respect black folks, so they're not going to hire them on. Even the "Free People of Color" thought they were better than and weren't willing to compromise their standing by supporting them. Thus, these newly FREE folks are still dependent on their former master for some time.

* White sympathisers were lynched, driven from their homes, had their possessions destroyed, set on fire, etc. Again, another repercussion....less people willing to befriend or help out non-whites due to personal safety issues.

* Colored folks were still shunned at the general store, local diner, in the 1860's and this continued on thru the 1960's, and can still be seen today, though to not such an obvious degree (i.e. signs staying 'coloreds use back door only').

* Even light skinned blacks, or "watered down" (if you will) black folks were discriminated against because they had black blood running in them. Fine example is a book by Lalita Tademy titled CANE RIVER, a historical fiction of 4 generations of her female ancestors who were slaves, but whiter with each generation because of masters raping the slaves. By the time the 4th generation rolled around, you could barely tell they had any black color to them, but yet, because townspeople knew, they weren't allowed to marry whites, they were still shunned, etc.

* Putting into perspective the photos of the signs tamra posted above, the back of the bus rule, separate bathrooms, water fountains, schools, etc...well, those are all self explanatory.

* I could go on and on, but these alone are good reasons to say NO, HELL NO.

As far as reparations, I can't say what is a fair dollar amount to place on the pain and suffering of black ancestors....life is priceless. Even with Holocaust victims, how can one say "I want 50 million dollars because my great grandfather died at Auschwitz"? What some of the most important things are that WE CANNOT and SHOULD NOT FORGET those who were treated more than unfairly because of race, color, sex, etc. Just because some "great" <cough cough> leader said for it to be so.

What we can continue to do is make POSITIVE CHANGES and POSITIVE PROGRESS in so many ways.
Will racism and hatred towards other races ever be eradicated?
Probably not. There are too many ignorami on this earth that continue to perpetuate the vicious cycle. But I think that a great start would be by attacking this issue with kids at a young age. Promoting, Educating, and EMBRACING diversity is the key to try to lessen this problem.

[Hmph]

(And I am guessing you meant descendants)

yes, thank you :cheeze:
personal issue for me so I'm thinking ancestors all the time.

hard to believe I'm just the first generation of my black side of family to be allowed education, automatic right to vote, employment.

I saw what was afforded to non-blacks, but only because of the position my mother and grandparents created.

I could not believe it when I saw blacks recently still living in the former slave quarters of plantations w/the poorest conditions and access to so little resources. there were even mulatto kids still running around -- kids made by the white property owner and having his way w/residents.

no one gives a fuck about them. the state tries to help, but only so much the state can do. the state can't build homes, schools, companies, or relocate entire neighborhoods, etc. it's a never ending cycle of poverty for some areas.

[Hmph]

As far as reparations, I can't say what is a fair dollar amount to place on the pain and suffering of black ancestors....life is priceless. Even with Holocaust victims, how can one say "I want 50 million dollars because my great grandfather died at Auschwitz"? What some of the most important things are that WE CANNOT and SHOULD NOT FORGET those who were treated more than unfairly because of race, color, sex, etc. Just because some "great" <cough cough> leader said for it to be so.

and I don't even think it's about money for reparations. it's about tearing down the continual unfairness of the division of wealth. I think the purpose of the lawsuit is to start that process of acknowledging "yeah we fucked up".

it's like passing by something that was stolen from you and not a damn thing you can do about it. knowing places like the NYSE boomed from slave auctions while the majority of persons employed are white is a continual slap in the face, and blacks are discriminated against for employment even today.

I think it helped that Bill Clinton acknowledged the country's role was a start, but that outraged whites, including whites who have only been in this country since the mid-1900's. Congress won't acknowledge shit and now I know why -- old hatred. the Senate majority leader has traditionally been a southern white senator from legacy.

and the fact that affirmative action had to be established to TELL companies and organizations including the government "you're not hiring blacks, they're not getting a fair chance in this country" is ridiculous. how can someone sit in an all or predominately white office or company in a MAJOR metropolitan city and not think...hmmmm...something is seriously wrong w/this picture. or if they're thinking "this is right, I don't see a problem" then there's your problem contributor right there. I saw a pic Dick Cheney recently took w/about 10 men from an elite government group. elite was an understatement - they were all white. not one asian, hispanic or black. yet the world I see around me is white, asian, black and spanish born americans.

and everytime someone says stop being a victim while so many wrongs have yet to be corrected is like saying "take what you got and are getting and shut up about it"

but let someone make a comment about Nazi's, jews, etc. all of a sudden it's all friggin' ears and here come the town torches and lynch mob.